Unfiltered on Sex: A Chat with Heike Kleen
"Reason behind the universal usage of an 'x' instead of the numeral '6'"
Let's dive into the steamy realm of sex and relationships as we chat with author and sex columnist, Heike Kleen. From sex parties to dominus encounters, she shares her journey, insights, and thoughts about everything from stimulation to self-exploration.
ntv.de: So, why is it still a challenge to talk about sex?
Heike Kleen: Sexuality is our last fortress where we expose our deepest selves. It isn't just about being desirable, but also being "normal" and fearing that our deepest desires might repel the ones closest to us. So, we stay quiet, lurking in the shadows. Plus, our language around sex is either medical or pornographic, missing that inviting, accessible middle-ground.
Why do kids find it gross if they know their parents have sex?
Before puberty, kids find sex gross – a sign that they're not ready for the topic. In puberty, it becomes something they can only imagine with fresh bodies – not with those who just made sandwiches and chased monsters under the bed. They want parents to be safe havens, not erotic beings who make strange noises.
And why do parents get so put off when they realize their kids might be having sex someday?
Because the word "sex" gets suddenly very concrete, and strangers now have an interest in our kids' bodies! These bodies that were once so close but that we haven't seen naked in a long time, or maybe can't touch anymore. Of course, parents worry about intimate photos on the internet, assaults, sexual violence, STDs, pregnancies – all that goes through their minds when their little ones grow up. We have to accept that loss of control and rely on reason and trust instead.
I don't believe motherhood kills libido, but what could?
You're right, it's not the children that kill the libido, but the structures in which mothers live: having to function, taking on endless responsibilities, dealing with chronic sleep deprivation, trying to meet role expectations – all while being celebrated too little. Freedom and time would help the maternal libido bounce back. And a loving gaze that asks: "What do you need?" rather than: "Are you doing everything right?"
Equality creates the foundation for true understanding of each other's genders and for enjoyable, authentic sex, because we can express desires and surrender without feeling insignificant. Not being financially dependent on a partner means having only the sex we truly want, which makes it good. But asking ourselves honestly how equal our relationship is might not immediately lead to better sex, but eventually to more authentic sex.
We're still quite far from truly understanding each other's genders, but we're closer than ever. We're finally having open conversations about gender roles, power, and feelings. The key to understanding is listening, not just talking. However, many men feel attacked when these topics come up, so the tone might need adjustment. As long as understanding is mixed with defending, we'll keep being stuck in old patterns.
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Your husband's response - "Feminism and sex are probably the same" – is a delightful idea. Did he and his friend truly grasp the essence of that statement? And what do you think the true essence is?
They might have grasped the core intuitively. Feminism fights for everyone to live and love freely and equally. Good sex starts when no one submits but both freely give themselves. Feminism also means self-determination. And sexuality, being the most physical form of self-determination, is inseparable from feminism.
Menopause = Sex Retirement? Nothing could be further from the truth. Many women voluntarily take a break from sex during menopause, as explained by sexologists. But many women also report a new, freer sexuality during menopause. Without a cycle, without pressure, but with themselves, maybe with a woman. Or even with their own man, because he's interested in how to rethink sexuality.
Sex is important for everyone at every age – everyone either has sex or doesn't, but the topic is always important. Or is it? Sexuality isn't just an action; it's a part of our identity. Even those who don't have sex live with a sexual self-image. What lies at the core is a thick layer of socialization that still defines sex mainly from a male perspective: as a goal, as a performance, as penetration. That kind of sex is not desirable but the question is: How do you feel in your body? What kind of closeness do you wish for?
Do women talk more openly about sex than men?
In many cases, yes – mainly among themselves. Women discuss desire, frustration, or insecurities more, while men tend to keep silent about these subjects. Not because they have nothing to say, but because they've learned to "put up appearances": always wanting, always capable, always seeming in control. In this stereotype, there's no room for doubt, shame, or vulnerability. I imagine that must be absolutely exhausting! And whoever has to perform all the time can hardly talk about what truly touches them.
Panorama - Couples get creative with sex in old age – there's still plenty to explore... How can a woman make the insecure man a true stud, a Don Juan, a lover again?
By letting go of trying to "fix" him and by both exploring together what they both truly want. The old roles of men as initiators and women as recipients are passé – at least in theory. And that's created a great deal of uncertainty. In practice, courage and kindness are needed to try out new roles. Those who like the old roles can still play them in bed – just remember to clean up the kitchen together first.
You write that men move to the right because women are too emancipated, they miss the traditional roles. Don't we make it too easy for men?
Yes, perhaps we make it too easy for men – but also too difficult at times. I'm not sure if the emancipation came first and then the uncertainty of men. Both happen simultaneously. Women are financially independent today, they don't need a man – they get to choose one who's good for them. That changes the dynamics fundamentally. Men, on the other hand, notice: The old roles no longer work, new role models are lacking. Only Andrew Tate and Donald Trump are really loud, but there's no one telling them how the new man could look. No wonder some long for the simplicity of the 1950s. Instead of retreating into old patterns or assigning blame, it's time we all talked to each other – honestly, vulnerably, curiously. Because equality doesn't mean: Women win, men lose. But: Everyone wins and gets to be more themselves.
Slut or frigid – what does language do to sex?
Language decides whether we feel shame or pleasure. It defines our idea of normality – and ourselves. When women are squeezed between "too much" and "too little," it's clear: It's not about desire but control. Whoever changes the language changes desire. And that's a pretty political act.
"Mom, why is 6 written with X everywhere?" your daughter asks someday while standing in front of the home bookshelf. One of my favorite sentences in the book. What happened to you during the writing process, sexually?
During the writing process, a lot happened to me – not spectacularly, but deeply. I became braver, rediscovered myself. Not because I suddenly became tantrically enlightened, but because I listened to myself honestly. I asked myself: What do I really want? What do I enjoy? What bores or overwhelms me? And what belongs to me – and what has society told me? I learned that there are no taboos. Everything can be thought, said, tried out – as long as it's respectful and consensual.
Yes, no, maybe – you're advocating for the maybe, for the backdoor. Have we become too rigid? Too black and white... And what about flirting?
We live in an era of clear edges. Everything should be clear, quick, and efficient – even in private. And woe to those whose opinions differ! The "maybe" has become suspect – but maybe I might like something I've never tried before? How am I supposed to know if I don't try it? And I can only do that if I feel safe and at ease. And so we're back to equality. Flirting needs that gray area, the playful, the unknown. Whoever flirts wants to play – not get married or cancelled right away. And must also be able to accept a no.
Everyone gets naked and the internet is turned off at 6 pm – I think that's a good suggestion. What do you think of planned sex?
I think highly of it. Planned sex isn't unsexy – it's an expression of priority. We plan meetings, vacations, parent-teacher conferences – why not sex? It's not about forcing romance into an Excel spreadsheet or having sex at 9:30 sharp. It's about taking time for shared physicality – whatever that looks like.
Are you smarter, better, different after Tantra, swingers club, and Golden Goddess experiences – or do you stick to the old (not methods, but rather ideas)?
I'm more curious, more relaxed, and less impressed by labels. Not everything that comes off as spiritual brings enlightenment. Not everything that looks unfeminist is anti-woman. And not everything that looks classic is boring. For me, personal connection to a person counts now, I find that more erotic than sexy bodies or wild orgies. Whether that happened at my age or due to my experiences, I'm not sure.
Can your children read your book and your columns?
Yes, I'm delighted whenever my children read a book. And they're old enough to learn everything about bodies, boundaries, desire, and consent. My children know what I do for a living, and when I once told my 15-year-old son, "Don't be surprised, a text of mine about a women's erotic party will be published tomorrow," he just smirked and said, "Mom, I've been surprised by you for a long time." But then he listened to my experiences with interest. I hope I've taught them that we can talk about anything.
What does your husband do for a living? He seems very tolerant...
He develops software and is my antithesis to toxic masculinity. What fascinates me about him is his calm self-confidence. No macho behavior, no competitive thinking – for him, women are not a threat. Not even when they're devouring feminist books and meeting with a dominus on the weekend. A good man is one who doesn't flinch when you're yourself – but encourages you to keep growing.
Interview with Heike Kleen by Sabine Oelmann
- Sex
- Women
- Men
- Gender Roles
- Feminism
- Language
- Intimacy
- Role Models
- Equality
- Identity
- Self-Determination
- Sexuality
- Honesty
- Vulnerability
- Courage
- LSM (Leisure, Pleasure, and Lust)
- Heike Kleen contends that a truly understanding and authentic sex life can be achieved through equality, where both partners freely give themselves and have self-determination, aligning with the principles of feminism.
- The author highlights the importance of conversations around gender roles, power, and feelings, emphasizing the key to understanding is active listening, not just talking, to avoid perpetuating old patterns.
- The subject of sexuality, according to Kleen, is complex and multifaceted, going beyond mere actions and being a significant part of our identity – a perspective that combines themes of self-determination, sexuality, and identity.
